Wednesday, May 03, 2006

The rational, the right, and karma: a long and boring post

First, thanks to all of you who responded to my last, rather controversial post. Perhaps I have not been clear enough in expounding my views on ethics, and many doubts and questions have been raised about their soundness. Here is an attempt to clarify…

I have only one firm belief which I shall assume to hold for the rest of my rambling – man’s purpose (and highest desire) is to maximize his own happiness (call it satisfaction, utility, pleasure, whatever… but you get the point). A better version would be “maximize the happiness of his sense of self”, but let’s not get into my concept of “self” now. I know that many do not subscribe to this belief, but it seems almost axiomatic to me and there is not much I can say to convince the reader of its truth. In any case, I derive from this that what is rational for a man is to act in a way that he thinks will maximize his own happiness.

On to normative things. Now, either there is absolute right and wrong (as is preached by most religions) or there isn’t. But since we don’t know, this is kind of immaterial when we are talking about what’s right and what’s wrong. We judge things right and wrong according to principles we create, and, as any ethics anthology will attest to, there are many such principles. I, personally, subscribe to a variant of utilitarianism/rule utilitarianism despite their many problems and complications. I can understand why one would levy a charge of convenient rationalizing on me based on my previous two bribe posts since I have not systematized my version of utilitarianism yet. My brand of utilitarianism somewhat balances regular and rule utilitarianisms and tilts toward the former.

I called traffic cop bribing wrong and the specific case of corporate bribing non-wrong. Om-guy pointed out that if you pay a lower fine and the cop gets the money, then you are increasing the global utility. I simply disagree; these two positive utilities fall short of the total negative global utility that accrues to the world from violating a rule (paying a ticket whose money goes to the exchequer and eventually – at least a large part of it - goes toward traffic enforcement for the good of the public) whose maintenance is good for the public. The negligible negative utilities to the public add up to offset the (not so large) positive utilities. In my specific case, the utility arithmetic is especially easy since my paying the bribe would mean some substantial negative utility to me. I call the corporate bribing non-wrong because the large list of positive utilities that come of that action (and that I mentioned) offsets the negligible negative utilities that accrue to the public at large.

Now to the overarching picture. What is rational for a man is not necessarily what is right. Thus I can call a fellow Indian both rational and wrong in his paying a bribe to a traffic cop if he does not feel guilt and derives positive utility from his action. In a way, I am justifying the action by calling it rational and yet morally denouncing it as wrong. I would love to make a persuasive argument of the sort that what is rational is what is right, since continual doing of right actions (where right, of course, the utilitarian kind of right discussed above) accrues to more positive returns in the long run, but I fear that such an argument would just be wishful thinking. I, as an individual, have the kind of social conscience or “largeness of self” that, most of the time, what is rational for me is also right by the above standards. However, if there is a mismatch, I’d go for what’s rational for me. Of course, if enough people acted to maximize their happiness by doing wrong actions, systems would break eventually resulting in too much negative utility even for the doers of these actions. Since maximum global utility would be achieved through maximum right actions, social conscience and large senses of self are desirable qualities to be present at large.

Note that my normative judgments have nothing to do with karma or such metaphysical assumptions.

Now on to karma. I find the theory of karma exceedingly beautiful in that its normative assignment is consistent with a belief in maximizing one’s own happiness. A wrong action according to karma is simply what brings bad karma to the individual (similarly a right action…). And then it talks about what brings bad and good karma to the individual – and these rules are largely agreeable to the social conscience. With karma, we have that what is rational for a man is, almost by definition, what is right. This is why I’d love to believe that karma is a fact and would be severely disheartened if I could be convinced otherwise. As for the extent of my current belief in karma, let’s just say that if I had a 100 bucks to bet and god (if it exists) offered a double or nothing bet about the truth of karma, I’d put 40 on “karma exists” and 60 in Reliance Capital stock.


Anonymous Anonymous said...


Taking from Indian debate theory, i think you have committed the fallacy of silence... in not spelling out your util/rule util theory, i can not but doubt that you have a consistent ethical system... util suffers because the calculus admits counterexamples... rule util suffers because it offends the harm principle by Mill... and otherwise, i think it's wishful thinking... it also admits counterexamples, but we can go with it... i cannot be any more explicit bc you haven't given us the system...

i have a hard time believing you have found a system that is consistent, sensible, and not 'ad hocery'... the problem with 'ad hocery' is that it won't generalize, and so it seems that you think of yourself as an oracle... i am leaning towards this because you even say it at some point... AOY is getting to you... you have "the largeness of self"? are you kidding me?

So, you disagree with my calculation, bc of rule util... but let me go on about this...

even rule util says that we should obey the well-formed rules...

it is apparent that india is a country of ass-clowns... and that the rules are not well-formed...

furthermore, what if an agents believes that india is a worthless country, and giving money to the country only propogates harm to many... putting money in the hands of indian politicians only ruins more people's lives... this is in line with rule util, because the agent i'm speaking of doesn't believe the rules are well-formed...

then they would be rational and right in bribing...

i would still accuse you through this all of messing with the calculations (in the bribing and corporate cases)...

on to this... what if a person believes that there is no system which gives us rights... no theoretical system which can ensure benefit of all for all time... and that the time when things aren't going well is vaguely right now... then they might decide to give up now... rationally and rightly...

with regard to your belief in karma... i applaud you for realizing that the belief is due to self delusion... that is what most of our metaphysical beliefs boil down to...

12:54 PM

Blogger Misanthrope said...

i am unfamiliar with indian debate theory, the calculus counterexamples, and the harm principle. whatever inconsistency u are referring to must apply to particular versions of it (like the calculus formulation u are referring to). i see no prima facie inconsistency in simple utilitarianism where an action that raises total global utility is right and vice versa.

i did not elaborate on my version of util/rule util because i thought it would be boring. in fact, my theory is (in principle), just simple util. if you recall, i had written an 8-page paper arguing that simple and rule util are the same thing. there i had used the technical definition. but i can appreciate the difference in spirit between both of these. so basically - i also concur that an action is right as long as it raises global utility (this is slightly different form versions that say that an action in a situation is right iff it is the action that maximizes global utility in that situation. i find this version silly). HOWEVER, the reason i think my version somewhat incorporates the spirit of rule util is this - i think that breaking a rule that, in general, gives positive utility results SHOULD COUNT as a fairly large negative utility in the total utility calculation. it's very hard to factor in the (negative) utility that comes from the breaking of a rule, and i don't see most versions of simple utilitarianism giving much emphasis on this perhaps because factoring this in the utility calculation is difficult. i feel that such a rule violation should usually count as heavy negative utility, depending on many factors like the severity of the rule, how frequently it's violated, etc. this is where u could say my "respect for the system" comes in. i don't think this is much more "ad hoc" than utilitarianism inherently is. it's a fact that utility calculations are problematic and very very subjective and lean toward ad hocism.

ok, "largeness of self" came off as cheesy, but this has NOTHING to do with AOY or spirituality or anything. this is just another way to describe a social conscience. in the sense that u identify somewhat with a large(r) portion of humanity. most people, and i think this is more common among indians, identify very strongly with a very small group of ppl (family & friends), not caring what consequences their actions have on the rest. this, i feel, needs to be remedied. and yes, i have the largeness of self to feel somewhat more than the average individual does about random people and society at large.

the rest of your comment where u attempt to give a rational and right bribing was confusing, and i think u were assuming that i subsribe to rule util, which i don't.

with regard to karma, i have realized since forever now that the belief is self-delusion in the sense that we want to believe it coz it's a feel-good factor, adds symmetry to life, and pleases our sense of justice - in the same bracket as god etc etc. we, or at least everyone i know, is incapable of proving it. yet, of course, i don't disbelieve it either.... agnosticism is the way to go.

10:36 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...


so then your version is silly...

if you do not consider the particularity of an action, your version is inconsistent...

consider some rule that you think generally raises global utility... the generally is there precisely because there is some situation in which it doesn't raise global utility... a counterexample... now repeat that situation a billion times (in some possible world)... a billion times is a lot, regardless of whether it is a majority of the times or not... so we now have a rule that restricts for a billion instances of happiness increase... and we are just obeying some stupid rule... we are disobeying the harm principle...

i take it that this was the abbreviation you were referring to... (in the sense, this is the way you remove "in a situation")...

and you haven't displaced the "ad hocery" objection by pushing it to utilitarianism... you have any number of ethical systems to choose from... and you are choosing the util one... i'm just saying, if you are the mouthpiece of what is ethical/not you gotta have it worked out...

and let me point out again if you take out particularity... i basically think you are working with my version of rule util... something i dont care for...

but if u want a defence of util... talk to neil sinhababu... he knows his shit...

11:42 AM

Blogger Misanthrope said...

your objections are silly and based on a wrong reading of my response.

i NEVER said that i do not consider the particularity of an action, and, in fact, i am a strong supporter of particularity. that is the warp and weft of simple util. au contraire, i said that i subscribe to simple util. the only improvisation i am making is by pumping up the negative utility earned from breaking a rule that is in general good, or alternatively that would be prescribed by rule util. the negative utility in breaking such a rule needs amplification because of the long-term term damage etc that would accrue from many such violations of the rule. there is no inconsistency here.... for any action, ppl would assign different negative and positive utilites to the many effects of that action... i am just saying that the rather "abstract" negative utility of breaking a rule needs to be taken well into account.

as i said, i don't know what the harm principle is. but i think i know what you're trying to get at in your billion-time counterexample. it's too simplistic and does not contradict my version of simple util at all. first, just because this general rule is good does not mean it cannot be violated. it just means that when someone violates it, one of the factors she takes into account is the considerable negative utility of breaking the rule. (similar to corporate bribing case, where the significant negative utility of bribing is overcome, in my view, by the many many positives) second, it's possible that even if no-one violates the rule the million times u think they should, the long term effects of strict adherence to the rule result in an overall gain (i know, i know, u could have made ur statement AFTER factoring in the long term, but in case u didn't...)

i have not increased the ad hocery.. or perhaps it's fair to say i haven't increased the ad hocery significantly by adding emphasis to this "abstract" rule-violation negative utility.

i am certainly choosing a more ad hoc system by choosing util. however, this is a rather considered opinion. of course, i've only done one course on ethics so i don't have all the exposure u prolly do. but among all the biggies util is the only one that makes any sense to me. it also goes along well with my axiom that the summum bonum of man is to maximize his own happiness/utility.

and i am the mouthpiece of what's ethical? i don't know what u exactly mean by that, but i am simply a person making my ethical views known and not even trying very hard to convert ppl to my ethics. in fact, being quite a staunch relativist in all things, i don't even close to think that my ethics, or any ethical system, has any great or lasting truth. and i think my ethical system is a fairly simple and worked out version of util.

by the way, since u seem quite passionate abt ethics, i'd really be interested in knowing what ethical system u subsribe to or like best. from what i remember last, u believed in a common ethical core that seems intuitively "right" to us or something...

1:11 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...


so, actually i think my objection remains knocking at the door...

i do not understand how you are going to decide what is a generally good rule... this seems completely ad hoc... and you are adding that to the system...

it won't be a necessary good... that's certainly clear... because it will have a possible world in which it is not generally good... namely, the world in which a counterexample occurs very very often...

you haven't argued for it being nomological... so i doubt that...

so is it completely a contingent "generally good"... if it is... why should we obey that good instead going for what is instantaneously globally positive... removing the rule util calculation part... i mean, it seems like this contingency is too weak to motivate most of us... it's like probabilistically it has worked out this way... but with no causal story...

i think utilitarianism is a fine schema... but i think it breaks down in practice of course... because everyone has a different calculus...

if i receive a bribe... and i turn out to be a really greedy person... so my pleasure points go into orgasm mode for 200 rupees... then it seems like the global good is to take the bribe... any negative overall effect is beaten by my orgasm-like greed...

where is utilitarianism's answer? it will just be a back and forth... and the result of this dialectic will admit too many counterexamples...

i don't think you version is very worked out at all, because every objection to utilitarianism remains an objection to yours...

and if i read that post again, it sounds like you are pretty judgmental about bribing/taking bribes... it wasn't the principle of bribing... it was some arcane ethical system that justified (at least attempted to justify) your beliefs...

as far as my ethical system... i'm not sure if the last sentence was a dig at my (hypothetical) system... but your system also rests on what is generally viewed as correct... else i really dont know where these generally good actions that become rules are coming from... if you are looking at the causal chain, then i think your system is too weak... because we can come up with innumerable causal stories pointing to different statements abt the action...

i think right now i really like J Dancy... but WD Ross is just the shit...

i'm pretty much a particularist... but i also think that ethical judgment can be made, it is just relative judgment... i think that we have lots of ethical obligations, of which the utilitarian obligation is just one... i'm not sure abt the formalization of ethics... or to what extent that project can be handled...

in any event... i don't think bribing in india is wrong... i think it is MO in India and i don't think that i or anyone should have the responsibility to change the MO... (this is the EU's view on India) if they want to change the MO, then so be it... and maybe they are great... or maybe they'll die without accomplishment... and if it is the latter, i won't weap for them...

that being said, i wouldn't bribe in india... i'd rather give the money to a monkey eating it's own shit... my decision not to bribe is not out of optimism but out of disdain... but i guess here is the deal... if someone in my family is going to die and i can save them by bribing... i'll do it... and then i might take a brutal revenge on the person who put me in such a situation...

but i think we are probably at a point where we should agree to disagree... and you can write about something else...

2:32 PM

Anonymous Anonymous said...


by the way... how pathetic am i? i spelt weep weap... fuck...

so actually, i think here is this other point... i think we have an obligation to rationality... or to some kind of occam's razor statement... or something of the sort... so if we extend voting rights to men, we are obligated by rationality to extend them to women...

but let's say in doing that, i am going to be hanged for blasphemy... i don't think i have the obligation to stand up for that... although i think i might (but prolly wont), because i care for my rational obligation somewhat...

so i guess in light of this... i think ethical judmgent can be passed... but only with respect to some particular weighting of obligations... i suppose my system doesn't allow for much judgment to be passed... but it isn't relativism... because there is some standard, although it is almost inert... (not really... but sort of)...

i suppose in the background of all this... i think law is bankrupt morally... i think there is s tremendous gap between law and morality... and so i'm rather unconcerned abt ppl disobeying the law...

but let me say, i think i kind of believe that ethical beliefs are bankrupt... sort of like late Wittgenstein on metaphysics... except he is a genius, and i'm just a pyrrohnian skeptic wrt ethics...

2:58 PM

Anonymous Rashmi said...


I liked your expose of Karma and the right and rational. After long I came across something that made me think of some of the things that I had always believed and deemed to be right. Although I did have some thoughts about some statements you made…
Let me start with your firm belief that all actions are to maximize a man’s happiness. I think that the idea itself is rooted from your screen name and may I presume that you by large are weary of trusting the good faith of the actions of other fellow humans. Your statement insinuates that everyone has a selfish motive in all they do and the sum total of all their actions should thereby equal to their own happiness. I would like to believe that there are many times when we do things for the happiness of people we love and care for which in turn makes us happy. Again I am assuming that you were not implying a cascading happiness effect in your words as they seemed to entail only self gratification. And if it did in fact mean selfless actions for the greater good of others then that was not explicit.

Another statement that I would like to bring up is where you state that what is rational for a man is not necessarily right. I totally agree that we as human rationalize things based on our own principles and they may not necessarily be right. Who then is a judge of right and wrong ? Right and wrong are also fathomed by our own principles. So if two different people were to judge the very same situation and had different results then who would be right and who wrong ? So what is rational may be right to one and wrong to another . Thus right and wrong are notional to the individual.

As for karma, believe in it as you are most likely to get return on that and the 60% in Reliance is a total waste of your intelligence.

3:53 AM

Blogger Rish said...

Hey (shall we call you Sindhi-girl?),

Thanks for the praise and comment. On to the particulars.

“Let me start with your firm belief that all actions are to maximize a man’s happiness. I think that the idea itself is rooted from your screen name and may I presume that you by large are weary of trusting the good faith of the actions of other fellow humans.”

This is rather true….

“Your statement insinuates that everyone has a selfish motive in all they do and the sum total of all their actions should thereby equal to their own happiness. I would like to believe that there are many times when we do things for the happiness of people we love and care for which in turn makes us happy. Again I am assuming that you were not implying a cascading happiness effect in your words as they seemed to entail only self gratification. And if it did in fact mean selfless actions for the greater good of others then that was not explicit.”

Yes, it was not explicit. In the blog I said: “A better version would be “maximize the happiness of his sense of self”, but let’s not get into my concept of “self” now.” This was an allusion to the cascading happiness effect you speak of. Let me clarify my concept of “self”. One’s “self” or “sense of self” is the composite of all that he/she identifies with. This, of course, is largely formed of one’s identification with oneself, but includes, in differing proportions, one’s family, friends, humanity, animals, etc. I exult in my father’s or mother’s success because my sense of self identifies with them to a high degree. I feel bad for a tragedy in Somalia because my sense of self identifies with humans in general, but perhaps much more feebly than those I know personally. I feel embarrassed when they show silly Bollywood films on flights and goras watch with much amusement because of my identification with an abstraction called “India”. You get the idea.

As an aside, I’ve borrowed this concept from a philosopher I really like. If you believe my axiom and assume this definition of self, there is no strict altruism since every action is being done with the motive of maximizing utility for one’s sense of self, and that sense of self includes identification with oneself. But if one’s sense of self is large enough, i.e, if they identify to a high degree with a large number of sentient beings, then their selfishness is not selfishness as commonly understood.

“Another statement that I would like to bring up is where you state that what is rational for a man is not necessarily right. I totally agree that we as human rationalize things based on our own principles and they may not necessarily be right.”

This last statement has a built-in assumption that there is some absolute called “right”. Are you assuming that there is some “right” in Nature or as laid down by a god or something?

“Who then is a judge of right and wrong ? Right and wrong are also fathomed by our own principles. So if two different people were to judge the very same situation and had different results then who would be right and who wrong ? So what is rational may be right to one and wrong to another . Thus right and wrong are notional to the individual.”

There can be two cases. Either there is absolute right or wrong or there isn’t. Even if there some absolute right/wrong, certainly humans have not discovered it or arrived at a consensus about it - every religion thinks it has the correct definition of absolute right/wrong, and they all pretty much contradict each other. In any case, if there is absolute right/wrong, we have no means of deducing what it is.

If there isn’t absolute right/wrong, then certainly this concept is relative, and in fact so important that almost the entire branch of Ethics is devoted to what we should adopt as a standard of right/wrong. Just because right/wrong is relative doesn’t mean we should stop judging or coming up with standards to judge right and wrong. In fact, I think it’s almost innate in humans to develop their own set of standards and judge using those. In the blog I was trying to explain the standard I find best.

“As for karma, believe in it as you are most likely to get return on that and the 60% in Reliance is a total waste of your intelligence.”

Ahh it would be a blessing if I could believe things without adequate proof. Are you offering any proof of Karma, a theory so far-reaching and powerful? And cmon, don’t knock Reliance – I did invest some money in various Reliance stocks and am making quite a killing.

1:57 AM

Anonymous Rashmi said...

Hey Sheesha Boy

Without further ado,
Lets try and get some answers to you …

Maximize happiness of 'self' -

My argument is rendered baseless after your explicit definition of ‘self’. But as naïve as it may sound and as an ardent optimist I would still love to believe that sometimes people are selflessness, and do things for no personal gain and with no hidden motives or agendas, simply because they believe in always doing the right thing. Or maybe at another level, I can relate the concept of doing things to maximize one’s own happiness if I relate it to Karma. In the sense, people do good things even for random strangers because they believe that good deeds will result in good karma which in turn someday will bequeath happiness on them in time to come. (After Om Shanti Om, I’m beginning to think it can be deferred to other life times as well  )
"This last statement has a built-in assumption that there is some absolute called “right”. Are you assuming that there is some “right” in Nature or as laid down by a god or something?"

The above statement does not imply that there is a universal law proclaiming right and wrong which is sacrosanct in every situation. What I mean is that no one can judge anything as right and wrong because everyone has their own justification for what is right and wrong and circumstances greatly influence it. Dont you think even a murderer will have ample justification and good reason for the murder he committed? It may be punishable by law but he will still have some rationalization to have indulged in the act and even if he is proclaimed insane there will still be some method in his madness. So the law may punish him but he may never concede that he ever did anything wrong by the law that governs his conscience. All I mean is that we ourselves can judge what is right and wrong because what is right for me may not be for you. I therefore think that we as mere humans have no right to judge others or their actions as you can never be sure what circumstance influenced them and in most cases we would be judging them without having all the facts.


Karma -
Is everything you believe substantiated with adequate proof? I have no proof that Karma exits but can you prove that it doesn’t ?

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